Transcript from Dutton Interview 2/09/05 with Dr. Kaye H. Kilburn, M.D., Ralph Edington Chair, Keck School of Medicine, USC
DUTTON: Dr. Kilburn, you’re one of the foremost authorities on hydrogen sulfide. I wonder if you could just react for us to the District Attorney Steve Cooley was saying about the levels of toxicity were not there. How do we reconcile the fact that LAUSD demolished the buildings and that they’re now thinking about remediating, when there’s no toxicity? What’s that inconsistency?
DR. KILBURN: I think they’re not trusting their nose, is what it comes down to. The site smells. It smells of hydrogen sulfide. The human nose can detect 30 parts per billion. It’s now been recommended from the U.S. Government that one part per billion is the toxic level to avoid. Levels of 375 parts per million – that, I think, is 375,000 parts per billion – have been found at the Belmont site after rains, where there are puddles where gas can be collected by simply inverting a jar and letting the gas bubble in.
DUTTON: What is the danger of hydrogen sulfide? How does it manifest itself to humans?
DR. KILBURN: Well, besides being an awfully fowl odor, it insidiously robs the brain of capacity to think, to remember, to do the ordinary cognitive functions – concentrate, co-process – but even things like balance, reaction time, that we think of as very kind of primitive things that, you know, primates have had, and birds, for millions of years, are diminished or wiped out.
DUTTON: Does it take much exposure for this to happen?
DR. KILBURN: One or two, uh, breaths in the minimal exposure, if the concentration is right, the gas goes through the lung directly to the brain. It has no chance to be detoxified.
DUTTON: Now, you treat people that come from all over the world that have symptoms from this. Are people aware when it happens? Does it take long to find out?
DR. KILBURN: Often, it’s insidious because the levels are not the high level instantaneously for a breath or two, but they’re levels of five parts per million or ten, which under the old ?NIOSH? 1970 standards – which they’re referring to – are all right for, uh, employment. But those standards, as I say, are – they were first guesstimates. They’ve been substantially removed from consideration with new data, and the recommendation now out for review from the Federal Government is one part per billion which, you know, is not even in the same ballpark as we’re talking about, and the attorney is saying this is safe.
DUTTON: Welcome back to Full Disclosure. We’re talking with our two experts here on the demolition of Belmont.
Dr. Kilburn, you have written a letter to the Department of Toxic Substance Control saying that you’ve been watching the situation at Belmont for years, and it’s your recommendation that they not build there. Tell us: You don’t think it can be remediated?
DR. KILBURN: No, I don’t. Short of putting the whole institution up on stilts, maybe 20 feet tall, there’s no way, because we’re Los Angeles. We’re an oil field. We’re an oil field well before Los Angeles was ever thought of. Go to the tar pits at Brea and see. So there’s no way of getting rid of what we sit on. The earth is really the way it is, it’s full of hydrogen sulfide, it’s bubbling to the surface, the old boreholes through cracks in the earth from our numerous earthquake patterns and other breaks that have been made. There was a normal bubbling to the surface even before all this, I’m sure.
DUTTON: When you’ve treated patients that have been exposed to hydrogen sulfide, how do they, themselves, become aware that they have a problem? And is it likely that children will be able to recognize that they have been exposed and have a problem?
DR. KILBURN: We have already lived through that. Some of you will remember the 1992 earthquake at Long Beach and Wilmington. That turned out not to be an earthquake at all, but it was an explosion of the desulphurization plant at Texaco down north of Pacific Coast Highway. 20,000 people, at least, were exposed to hydrogen sulfide. What does it do to children Well, from two schools, special education teachers came to me for their own problems, and then said, “I have students who were passing and can’t pass anymore. I have had more referrals for special education since that explosion than I ever remember having, and I have seen many children drop out of school because they’re uneducable.” If this is what we want as a Belmont High School, we already have seen, at Wilmington School, how this plays out. I don’t really think it can be justified to do the experiment again. It was conclusive the first time,
DUTTON: Dr. Kilburn, I’d like to ask you: You’ve seen a lot of patients and a lot of people who were in the oil industry that have been exposed to this hydrogen sulfide occupationally. Is this a permanent damage that is incurred, or is it something that people can get over?
DR. KILBURN: There’s no way to reverse it that’s known. I wish it were possible, and we’re actually doing some experiments that may make it possible to ameliorate to some degree the severe loss of function. But no, there’s no cure.
DUTTON: Now, I’d like for you to just give us your perspective, from one of the very most foremost international authorities on this subject. Why is ?there? that people want to minimize the problem and don’t want to really acknowledge it?
DR. KILBURN: Globally, let’s say that all oil and gas in the Western Hemisphere is contaminated with hydrogen sulfide. Our big push to natural gas, we’re using – using for heating – natural gas, coming out of the ground, 85% hydrogen sulfide. Every bit of petroleum we’re burning has a percentage of hydrogen sulfide. So it’s here. It’s on earth. And we need to really think, for the future, of eliminating dependence on fuel that has to be desulfurized before it can be used. When it leaks out of the ground, whether it’s at Yellowstone Park or ?Rotorua? Park or Hilo Park in Hawaii – Rotorua is in New Zealand – Sonoma County, it leaks out as hydrogen sulfide. People are overcome, collapse, and they show neurologic impairment. It’s like early aging. They age 30, 40 years ahead of time. That’s all right if you’re 90. Not so good if you’re 30.
DUTTON: So in other words, this is maybe a lot more common that people realize?
DR. KILBURN: Yes, it is. We have three counties in the eastern part of New Mexico. It looks like Lee County and the counties surrounding Lee County, the whole 40,000 people in those three counties. Think of, you know, we’ve got 40,000 people in a square mile in Los Angeles.
DUTTON: Thank you. And
Dr. Kilborn, demolishing the buildings and reconstructing them right there on the same site: Is that going to help?
DR. KILBURN: No. I asked the school board, when I met with them, why didn’t they move the school board offices to the site, if they were guaranteed that they were fine, and put the school in the present downtown site of the school board offices. There were no takers for that simple plan, which would have given the children a safe place to go to school.
DR. KILBURN: I think they’re not trusting their nose, is what it comes down to. The site smells. It smells of hydrogen sulfide. The human nose can detect 30 parts per billion. It’s now been recommended from the U.S. Government that one part per billion is the toxic level to avoid. Levels of 375 parts per million – that, I think, is 375,000 parts per billion – have been found at the Belmont site after rains, where there are puddles where gas can be collected by simply inverting a jar and letting the gas bubble in.
DUTTON: What is the danger of hydrogen sulfide? How does it manifest itself to humans?
DR. KILBURN: Well, besides being an awfully fowl odor, it insidiously robs the brain of capacity to think, to remember, to do the ordinary cognitive functions – concentrate, co-process – but even things like balance, reaction time, that we think of as very kind of primitive things that, you know, primates have had, and birds, for millions of years, are diminished or wiped out.
DUTTON: Does it take much exposure for this to happen?
DR. KILBURN: One or two, uh, breaths in the minimal exposure, if the concentration is right, the gas goes through the lung directly to the brain. It has no chance to be detoxified.
DUTTON: Now, you treat people that come from all over the world that have symptoms from this. Are people aware when it happens? Does it take long to find out?
DR. KILBURN: Often, it’s insidious because the levels are not the high level instantaneously for a breath or two, but they’re levels of five parts per million or ten, which under the old ?NIOSH? 1970 standards – which they’re referring to – are all right for, uh, employment. But those standards, as I say, are – they were first guesstimates. They’ve been substantially removed from consideration with new data, and the recommendation now out for review from the Federal Government is one part per billion which, you know, is not even in the same ballpark as we’re talking about, and the attorney is saying this is safe.
DUTTON: Welcome back to Full Disclosure. We’re talking with our two experts here on the demolition of Belmont.
Dr. Kilburn, you have written a letter to the Department of Toxic Substance Control saying that you’ve been watching the situation at Belmont for years, and it’s your recommendation that they not build there. Tell us: You don’t think it can be remediated?
DR. KILBURN: No, I don’t. Short of putting the whole institution up on stilts, maybe 20 feet tall, there’s no way, because we’re Los Angeles. We’re an oil field. We’re an oil field well before Los Angeles was ever thought of. Go to the tar pits at Brea and see. So there’s no way of getting rid of what we sit on. The earth is really the way it is, it’s full of hydrogen sulfide, it’s bubbling to the surface, the old boreholes through cracks in the earth from our numerous earthquake patterns and other breaks that have been made. There was a normal bubbling to the surface even before all this, I’m sure.
DUTTON: When you’ve treated patients that have been exposed to hydrogen sulfide, how do they, themselves, become aware that they have a problem? And is it likely that children will be able to recognize that they have been exposed and have a problem?
DR. KILBURN: We have already lived through that. Some of you will remember the 1992 earthquake at Long Beach and Wilmington. That turned out not to be an earthquake at all, but it was an explosion of the desulphurization plant at Texaco down north of Pacific Coast Highway. 20,000 people, at least, were exposed to hydrogen sulfide. What does it do to children Well, from two schools, special education teachers came to me for their own problems, and then said, “I have students who were passing and can’t pass anymore. I have had more referrals for special education since that explosion than I ever remember having, and I have seen many children drop out of school because they’re uneducable.” If this is what we want as a Belmont High School, we already have seen, at Wilmington School, how this plays out. I don’t really think it can be justified to do the experiment again. It was conclusive the first time,
DUTTON: Dr. Kilburn, I’d like to ask you: You’ve seen a lot of patients and a lot of people who were in the oil industry that have been exposed to this hydrogen sulfide occupationally. Is this a permanent damage that is incurred, or is it something that people can get over?
DR. KILBURN: There’s no way to reverse it that’s known. I wish it were possible, and we’re actually doing some experiments that may make it possible to ameliorate to some degree the severe loss of function. But no, there’s no cure.
DUTTON: Now, I’d like for you to just give us your perspective, from one of the very most foremost international authorities on this subject. Why is ?there? that people want to minimize the problem and don’t want to really acknowledge it?
DR. KILBURN: Globally, let’s say that all oil and gas in the Western Hemisphere is contaminated with hydrogen sulfide. Our big push to natural gas, we’re using – using for heating – natural gas, coming out of the ground, 85% hydrogen sulfide. Every bit of petroleum we’re burning has a percentage of hydrogen sulfide. So it’s here. It’s on earth. And we need to really think, for the future, of eliminating dependence on fuel that has to be desulfurized before it can be used. When it leaks out of the ground, whether it’s at Yellowstone Park or ?Rotorua? Park or Hilo Park in Hawaii – Rotorua is in New Zealand – Sonoma County, it leaks out as hydrogen sulfide. People are overcome, collapse, and they show neurologic impairment. It’s like early aging. They age 30, 40 years ahead of time. That’s all right if you’re 90. Not so good if you’re 30.
DUTTON: So in other words, this is maybe a lot more common that people realize?
DR. KILBURN: Yes, it is. We have three counties in the eastern part of New Mexico. It looks like Lee County and the counties surrounding Lee County, the whole 40,000 people in those three counties. Think of, you know, we’ve got 40,000 people in a square mile in Los Angeles.
DUTTON: Thank you. And
Dr. Kilborn, demolishing the buildings and reconstructing them right there on the same site: Is that going to help?
DR. KILBURN: No. I asked the school board, when I met with them, why didn’t they move the school board offices to the site, if they were guaranteed that they were fine, and put the school in the present downtown site of the school board offices. There were no takers for that simple plan, which would have given the children a safe place to go to school.
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